[MHml] Open Racing offshore vs closed course was Cats vs Tri
proa at iinet.net.au
Tue Nov 7 01:21:07 EST 2006
1. I cannot build a 50' x 27' multihull out of carbon and honeycomb for
$12.5k USD. I'm not a boat builder at all. I suspect these are the
material costs without labor?
Correct. Labour is near enough the same as material costs. Shipping from
Aus (it all fits in a container) will add about $US4,000, less if a couple
of boats go together.
B 2. I wouldn't have to hire a competent round the buoys racer, thank you
much. While not my usual course of choice, I can get around the buoys well
enough to enjoy it. :-)
R I don't doubt it. Suspect you could also get across the ocean better than
most. My comment was in relation to yours about needing to "hire" Ross.
Some people can sail round the buoys, some can sail offshore and some can
build. Any area you don't have enough skills, you need to pay someone.
The builder will be the most expensive, the round the cans racer next and
the offshore racer will do it for free.
B 3. I have never received a "pickle dish" for "drifting to Ensenada". In
> "drifting conditions" I avoid this by losing to faster mono-hulls. As in
> 2005 & 2006. In 2002, 2003, & 2004 there was enough wind. :-)
R I should have done a bit more research, but it was a tongue in cheek
comment to see if you could be stirred from your current comfort zone. Does
the 14 foot cat with 400 sq' of sail have any more appeal if it is only
sailed on SF Bay?
> Interesting. I wonder if cost isn't one of your biggest advantages-
> i.e your whole approach is cost effective, so it will be hard to
> compete with you dollar for dollar. By giving away that advantage, (a
> claiming format is designed to prevent someone from spending their
> way to victory), you make your point all the stronger- "I'll take you
> on with fewer dollars and still beat you".
While i agree that cost is one of my big advantages I am not convinced that
claiming is the way round it.
The reason for the sail area only limit is to investigate the most
efficient/fastest way of using that area. Whether the racing is equally
priced or "fair" for all competitors is not really relevant. Fair and cheap
racing is why they build lasers and sunfish.
Some really good ideas are simply not cheap. For example, I would not like
the Cogito guys to stay away because they knew that if they spent half a
million bucks building a wing sail boat that they would have to sell it for
a couple of grand afterwards. I would also be wary of imposing cost
restraints on boats which are going offshore.
The reason for using small sail areas, offshore boats and solo crews is
because (I think) there is more scope for innovation with theses boats than
any other, and it can be done comparatively cheaply.
Thanks for the congrats. Any suggestions on getting a few more fast
competitors, of any type, for the solo Transpac much appreciated.
Well I am still retired. Rather get in 3 races a day over a weekend
> then spend 4 weeks offshore.
> How about a speed circle with the IYRU 150 sq ft but without the length,
> and beam restrictions.
> Single handed and no hiking aids, seats, racks,trapeze or even straps
> And lets make it 100 meter diameter not one mile so anyone can set up
> at local lake, bay impoundments even wide river and try it everyday if
> they want constantly refining and training.
> Have several regionals and a national each year to put up or shut up.
> and prove your claims.
> Regattas will be match races, with twin circles and an elimination format
> In theory one should have a scale weight, boat and crew combined. but
> then we get into other issues. Not so easy is it. "OPEN" Racing
> Never happen but could be fun
You asked for a simple rule. With your help, I came up with one, and a
course to run it on. You didn't like the course, I added another two.
Now you want to shorten the course (no problem except that it is unlikely to
be possible with government buoys so yacht clubs and committee boats are
required and 100m puts a lot of emphasis on crew skills), reduce the sail
area (resulting in a smaller version of Cogito), add a bunch of hard to
enforce restrictions (is a trimaran windward hull a hiking aid?), get yacht
clubs involved and turn it into an organisational nightmare with
championships and weight limits.
This sounds like "Too many special interest people putting forward to ever
permit a true open rule. ", which is the reason you gave for open rules not
working. So, I agree, it will never work.
What might work is open racing with a given sail area, a rabbit boat start
and x laps around already laid Government buoys.
No entry fees, prizes, yacht clubs, officials, protests, measurement,
handicaps and hopefully not too many of the people who think that without
all this infrastructure it is impossible to race boats. At the end of the
day everyone emails in their finish time, stories and excuses and that is
that. Just a bunch of people sailing round the bay as fast as they can
and talking about it afterwards.
Then send some or all of them off on the solo Transpac for the ride of their
lives and to prove that their chosen rig and boat setup is seaworthy and
fast. Anyone who wants to optimise for or only enter one of the races is
welcome, as are any other boats with sail area in the same ball park. The
more data points we can get, the better.
If (big if I know) there are more than a couple of boats after the first
races, then look at making it more complex.
On Monday 06 November 2006 00:18, Rob Denney wrote:
> > Wind driven self steering gear
> Now just how do you plan to do that for a vessel that presumably sails
> than wind speed at times over a predominantly downwind course ?
Set it to sail with the wind on or just aft of the beam, and sheet the sails
accordingly. As the boat speeds up, the apparent comes forward, the boat
bears away. Slows down, it luffs up. The faster it goes, the more
downwind it sails. The hull is fine enough and buoyant enough forward that
it should not stuff into waves and stop, which can lead to accidental gybes
as the apparent swings aft faster than the steering can luff. This is
pretty much how I sail my 25 footer downwind.
Gybes are not a problem from a safety point of view (the sail weathercocks
and the boat drifts), but they are slow, and not conducive to sleep.
Surfing down waves faster than the wind will be a problem as the boat will
want to keep bearing off. However, in 20-25 knots of breeze I would not
want to sleep through this anyway (imagine carving up big swells at 25+
knots, what a buzz!) so would slow down dramatically (reef or undersheet)
while I sleep. Could also look at sailing ddw and let the vane do the
work while I sleep. Course is erratic as the vane sees less than 60% of the
true wind strength, but it is in mostly the right direction and the main
can gybe back and forth with impunity. With no spinnakers or headsails to
mess with, changing from slow and sleepy to yahoo down the waves is nothing
like the hassle that it is on conventiional boats.
The alternatives are: 1) an autopilot steering to a course, which means that
every time the boat speeds up, the sails are out of trim, which is slow. 2)
an expensive autopilot, wind instruments and gyroscopic compass which can
steer to both wind and course. Both require a gen set, fuel and tankage,
plus the likelihood of spending half the race dismantling and repairing
I figure if I am going to use technology to steer the boat, I am missing out
on half the fun and most of the challenge, while increasing the budget, the
weight and the complexity. Both are completely contrary to my boating
If I can't get it to work reliably while I sleep, I will use it while I am
awake and/or steer by hand, and drop the sail or heave to to sleep. If I
can sail at 15 knots while awake and drift while asleep for 6 hours at 2
knots, I will break the record ;-).
The mk 1 unit will have a 3m long lever arm with a vane on the end of it.
Hopefully this will supply enough leverage not to need a water driven servo.
It has the added advantage that if the boat heels alarmingly sailing upwind,
the weight of the arm and vane causes the boat to luff. Maybe.
Any ideas or improvements, much appreciated.
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